Categorized | church involvement, featured

Mind Control & Mormonism

Posted on 26 November 2008 by admin

OK, I know this title is a bit incendiary, and perhaps discussion should not be limited to Mormons.  But since I only know about Mormonism from being raised in the LDS church, that’s all I feel qualified to comment about. I often wonder to what degree I’ve been shaped by my Mormon upbringing, and sometimes feel that I’m trying to undo some of it, through therapy and other personal development, while embracing other parts. It’s terribly confusing.

This will be a short post for now, and I plan on coming back to develop my thoughts and arguments at a later time.  My premise here is that there is a huge amount of control that is imposed within the Mormon church, and the people under this control are inable to see it by definition.  Secondly, I don’t think that the general public is aware of this degree of control and the massive effect it had with Prop 8.

There was an interesting bit in the statement from Rich Raddon in his statement about resigning from the Los Angeles Film Festival over his Prop 8 donation:

As many know, I consider myself a devout and faithful Mormon. I prefer to keep the details around my contribution through my church a private matter.

I’m sure if pushed on this statement he would backtrack and say that he made the donation directly, not through the mormon church, but this “slip of the tongue” alludes to the truth of the REAL influence the church has on members. Of course, the biggest evidence of the Mormon influence is the massive backing from church members, however they like to point out that it was Members, not the church, that supported it. Comments like this show the real situation. (Also see “Wonderful Testimony of Obedience” and my post on a Wall Street Journal column). And oh yeah, they said the same thing over at El Coyote.

As do these comments, posted on a Mormon blog:

“I’m puzzled that you (and others) interpret the first presidency statement as giving “permission” for Mormons to vote no on 8. If you read it carefully, it doesn’t say that at all. It merely acknowledges the fact that some Mormons will, in fact, choose to vote how they want regardless of what church leaders say. I don’t think the statement does anything to overturn the idea that loyal members have a duty to put aside their own feelings and support the church’s position.” 

One person responded with the following:

I would have to look long and hard to find a statement to disagree with, from any of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve, made in General Conference.

That said, I do not believe it is ever permissable for a member of the Church to “put aside their own feelings and support the church’s position”, unless they feel they are so mired in sin as to be unable to access the influence of the Spirit, and therefore cannot trust their own judgment.

Even the response seems to argue that church leaders are always correct, and this person has never had cause to question them. There is a strong suggestion that if you are questioning, you should first look at yourself as potentially being mired in sin and unable to reason. Mormons answer to their church leadership to an awesome and scary degree. To them, their leaders are speaking gods words for him on the earth.  If the “prophet” says something that is not of God, something wrong, or something evil, it means that their entire church is no longer “the only true church on the face of the earth today.”

To this point, today in the Washington Post, a letter said:

As members of the LDS Church, we believe that our leaders are inspired, are able to foresee alarming trends in our culture and offer wise counsel for troubled times.

Again, this is my initial post on the topic and I plan to come back to add more information to my argument.  For now, please see my related posting: “Wonderful Testimony of Obedience” and this post with a video of a Mormon guy talking about the church influence in Prop 8 — with a paper bag over his head.  In the video, the guy talks about not being able to speak out against Mormon leadership.  ”If you don’t understand why this is scary, you don’t understand Mormonism.”

No related posts.

60 Comments For This Post

  1. a mormon Says:

    It is laughable that you are basing your argument on an inference and two comments made on Feminist Mormon Housewives, a blog hardly representative of the Mormon mainstream. Would you want me to go find two quotes from gays who agree with prop 8 passing (there are some) and then claim that I know how all gays feel about the issue?

  2. admin Says:

    Thanks for the comment, A. Mormon. But you didn’t deny the argument. Very interesting. Anyone who is Mormon knows that these claims are true. You know. I know. There is a very extensive discussion on this blog, with perhaps 100 or more people participating. I encourage readers to view the comments in context and see if they were viewed as outrageous.

    As I said in my post, this is but first in a series! I just wanted to get it started with this one by stating my premise.

    Using comments from blogs, or other statements by church members, is probably the only way to make this argument. The only way to do it is to show the reality of the thinking inside the church. But I agree, that more comments and citations will only improve the credibility of the claims.

    But you still didn’t deny them.

  3. Sam Says:

    Good luck man, have had a few friends travel the same road you are on. Some members of your family will likely disown you if they haven’t already. Affirmation helped my closest friend.

  4. Jim Says:

    This web-site will help you unravel the many twisted turns and paths of the delusion we call religion.

    whywontgodhealamputees.com

    To completely disregard the rights of your fellow humans and to blatantly violate the Constitution which guarantees the pursuit of happiness and equal treatment under the law, to mandate and control the personal lives of others, is not only un-American, it is fascist in its insanity.

    “No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him.”
    ~Thomas Jefferson

    “Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law,’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual.”
    ~Thomas Jefferson

    “That the desires of the majority of the people are often for injustice and inhumanity against the minority, is demonstrated by every page of the history of the whole world”
    ~John Adams

  5. Seth R. Says:

    Doesn’t sound much different from summer football camp to me.

    Big freaking deal.

  6. paa Says:

    This is probably a waste of time but I’m going to put in my 2 cents anyway. I have been a Mormon most of my life, and it totally baffles me that anyone can think that there is any degree of “mind control” going on in said church. Members are encouraged in every way to seek out knowledge and truth for themselves, through their own personal relationship with God. We are not supposed to “blindly” follow others, including ecclesiastical leaders, but are encouraged to gain our own personal knowledge of a principle, to decide on our own as to its truthfulness. This is true for ANY principle of knowledge, not just that which comes through church leaders. I think you are just looking for things to pick on with regards to the LDS faith. I’m fine with you disagreeing with the LDS church’s stance on Prop 8, but I think rather than relying on whatever arguments you can make in favor of Prop 8, you are just trying to find fault with your opponent. I would compare it with an evangelical who, rather than tout the positive traits of his own faith, descends to tearing down the faith of others, thinking that it will somehow lift his own faith. It has the opposite effect. The LDS side is very grossly misrepresented on this site. Rather than trying to be objective, many false accusations are made, which only hurts your credibility on any given issue. I don’t see the LDS as trying in any way to intentionally harm others or take away any of their constitutional rights. The idea of simply preserving the traditional definition of marriage should not be such a big deal, as it is something that has been around as long as civilization. It was never an issue until recent years. Some kind of compromise should have been tried instead of something like this which is so drastic and so controversial. Gays have much more rights now by far than ever before, with a bright future ahead for them, (which I am fine with) so it should not be necessary for them to intrude on the rights of those who want marriage to be reserved for its traditional meaning. The issue here is a boundary line which we feel strongly about, if crossed, will result in eventual intrusion on our rights to believe in traditional marriage as the preferred way.

  7. admin Says:

    So, Paa, you are under the mind control. How can we listen to your reasoning?

    You can’t be serious about going out and “seeking knowledge and truth” when the brethren have already issued an edict. I know how it works. You know how it works. If the church has a position on something you can’t question it. Fine, go out and “seek truth and knowledge” about earthworms, but don’t question the brethren.

  8. admin Says:

    And, Paa, why does “simply preserving traditional marriage” apply to Mormons? When did they earn the credibility to “defend” it after the, um.. polygamy thing?

  9. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Ditto to Paa! I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints for almost forty four years. I can question anything I wish. I have never felt that I couldn’t seek knowledge. I have the truth and am very thankful for it.

  10. Dee W. Says:

    Miriam, you have the truth and are very thankful for it? Huh? The book of Abraham was proven to be False (false is not truth) forty years ago… if you cannot accept that— mind controlled!!! Your credibility about all other beliefs, such as homosexuality, is nil. Here’s a truth: Millions of people are tired of your trying to hold up the Big Lie – Religion. Check out google videos, Zeitgeist the Movie. Let’s just live and let live.

  11. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    To Dee W.
    I would like you to confirm, how you know, that The Book of Abraham is false. I would like sources, etc.
    Many people, who are not LDS, feel that homosexuality is wrong and unnatural. I am tired of the big lie of nonreligious sentiment. Some may feel that live and let live is fine for mortality, but in the eternal plan, it doesn’t hold water.

  12. admin Says:

    Miriam, I don’t think it would be very hard at all to single out Mormons in laws as the gays have been singled out here. Many people feel, including a lot of Christians, believe Mormonism is “wrong and unnatural”. If Prop 8 stands, what’s to stop the “many people” from, say, banning Mormon marriage? We can either live and let live, or judge and anniahlate each other. As far as I’m concerned, you can take your eternal plan and shove it up your ass. It has no place in my life, or in governing my life.

  13. Anonymous Says:

    whoever said the polygamy thing, that was a message from god that said do this, and they did it. then he said do not do this anymore for it is immoral and unnatural and wrong. from then on i have heard comments about how many wives have u got? paa is right, we do have a right to seek truth and knowledge and judge its truthfulness. heck everyone has that right. if we has multiple wives we would have more than two car bills, (if they had a car for themselves).

    why dont you get to know some LDS people before you judge us on something that god has told us not to practice.

    PROUD…STRAIGHT…AND MORMON!!! HURRAH!!!

  14. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    I wasn’t aware that I posses a donkey.

  15. sam Says:

    I don’t think its a matter of whether or not Miriam or PAA think they have the truth or not. If they do, good for them! Just keep your religious beliefs out of our government and I’ll do the same with mine. Otherwise move somewhere they may be more welcome. I hear Iran loves laws based on theology. There’s a few other Theocracies out there if Iran isn’t to your liking maybe the Vatican or Saudi Arabia, or just go buy an island and start your own. Be sure to bring your ass. :)

  16. chelovek Says:

    How do brainwashed Cult members know they are brainwashed? Well, obviously they don’t.

    How can brainwashed Mormon Cult members come on here and claim they are not brainwashed? Well, obviously they can’t!

    Just the same, they will keep showing up like the Cult Propagandist tools they really are.

  17. admin Says:

    Anon says: “why dont you get to know some LDS people before you judge us on something that god has told us not to practice.”

    My response: Why don’t you get to know some gays and lesbians, and about gay and lesbian history and discrimination, before you try to judge us. Better yet, why don’t we all refrain from judging each other — including through votes and laws. Especially through votes and laws.

    Actually, you can judge me all you want. But you are way out of line to enact a law to do it for you. It doesn’t take a “prophet” to know that this will ultimately be looked back upon with disgust.

  18. Anonymous Says:

    to chelovek

    how do you know that the Mormon church is a cult. thats right, you don’t. the church isn’t like the KKK or anything cult related.

    we’re just like any other church that studies the scriptures and tries to apply the teachings to our own life.

  19. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Thank you anonymous! You are absolutely correct.

  20. sam Says:

    Anonymous, I’m pretty sure the KKK, and the Taliban would say the same things about themselves … that they’re “just like any other church that studies the scriptures and tries to apply the teachings to our own life.”

    The only problem is, saying it doesn’t make it true. Doing it does, and at least in California we saw what most Mormons did, misread their scriptures and applied the “teachings” to OTHER people’s lives.

  21. chelovek Says:

    Anonymous and other Mormon Cult Propagandist tools posting here:

    The Mormon Cult fits each and every of the criteria to be proven to be a Cult. Other sects may fit one or two but the Mormon Cult fits *each and every* and that’s why it can be correctly called a cult.

    The definition of a Cult:

    “a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.” (http://www.dictionary.com)

    This perfectly fits the organization and behavior of the Mormon Cult.

    Again, just because calling it a cult doesn’t make Anonymous, MFC, etc. feel warm and fuzzy doesn’t mean it’s not a cult and it certainly doesn’t mean it’s hateful when calling a true Cult a Cult.

    When a group of millions of people march out at the command of a charismatic leader (false prophet Mr. Monson) and act in ways that one would reasonably expect to be contrary to their own consciences, we call that a Cult.

    Mormons only appear to live within society (“members often living outside of conventional society”). In reality they have a very separate life and must return to the fold on an extremely regular basis to make sure that the Cult brainwashing remains intact. Nearly every institution of higher learning has an “Institute of Religion” across the street from the campus to make sure that getting educated doesn’t undo the Mormon Cult influence in the lives of Mormon Cult members. Every Mormon Cult member who attends an institution of higher learning is commanded to go to the “Institute of Religion” on a regular and constant basis to get their “fix” and keep them in line.

    Mormon Cult Members attend separate Mormon Cult organizations at every stage of their lives beginning at the age of three and onward right through to “Young Adult” groups that make sure that Mormon Cult members only meet and marry other Mormon Cult members. Mormon Cult members even maintain their own Boy Scout Troops to keep their members from being exposed to other values. Mormon Cult Buildings have such things as their own basketball courts and other sports facilities to keep Mormon Cult members away from the world at large and they play almost exclusively against other “Ward” teams. Every Mormon Cult facility has its own stage on which Mormon Cult only plays, musicals, and such are frequently enacted. Nearly every Mormon Cult Building has a large social hall where entire congregations meet on a regular basis to make sure that Mormon Cult Members socialize almost exclusively with only other Cult members. The false impressions that Mormon Cult members are actually part of the world is just that – FALSE.

    The Mormon Cult is certainly considered to be UNORTHODOX by ALL other religions!

    The Mormon Cult is an extremist organization that demands absolute conformity of all members even though they train their members to “appear” as if they were actually normal members of society. That individuality is only skin deep. Peel away a thin layer and you will notice that every Mormon Cult member is thoroughly trained in answering each question about the Mormon Cult in exactly the same way and, often as not, word for word. I know when I was part of the Mormon Cult I certainly had the necessary training to be a perfect Propaganda Machine for the Mormon Cult. The fact that the Mormon Cult is an extremist organization is proved in spades by the actions of Cult members with regard to prop 8!

    So, no – calling it a Cult does not indicate hate. Accurately speaking, it indicates an intimate knowledge and awareness of the truth about the Mormon Cult. (I was raised in the Mormon Cult so I know first hand.)

    Some get upset at how I speak of the Mormon Cult. So be it. They do not have my experience and cannot begin to understand how truly dangerous and insidious the Mormon Cult really is. They do not understand that you cannot play nice with a massive, hyper-wealthy, organization with millions of hyper-conformist members who will do absolutely ANYTHING the “prophet” commands them to do. Anyone who underestimates the Mormon Cult’s power and its threat to everyone’s civil rights and freedom does so at their own peril. This is not a group of Cult Members who will play fair with you. They are trained to smile to your face and pretend to empathize while they are just waiting for orders from the (false) “prophet” on just when and how they should stab American Society in the back next.

    For an example of what a well-oiled and super organized Cult the Mormon Cult is check out this url in which the Mormon Cult leadership outlines, in detail, its plans to take away the civil rights of innocent people:

    http://kolobcafe.com/wiki/index.php/Prop8Recording/Full#The_Campaign_to_Pass_Proposition_8 (This is no longer available as the Mormons have done their best to remove the evidence of their wrongdoing wherever they can)

  22. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    I guess that the “absolute conformity” that you say exists within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, didn’t apply to you. Your tirade is so silly, and full of deceptive
    ideas, that I had to reply, even though I think you really know the truth. I don’t know where you live, but I am a LDS who lives in a small NH town. Our chapel doesn’t have a stage or basketball court. I wish it did. When my family lived in upstate NY, our chapel didn’t have these facilities either. Our children played on the public school sports teams, participated in their school plays and choirs, and certainly didn’t have the privilege of having an Institute of religion near their school. My husband, son ,and his wife, stay close to the gospel. Our daughter and husband chose not to. We are not brainwashed. We have lots of contact with our daughter and her husband.
    I suggest that you do a bit more research before you make your next comments. It seems that the worst critics of the Church are disgruntled former members. One final point, I chose to make, my sister in law is gay. We love her, and her family. The so called “cult” has never told us to ignore or hate her.

  23. sam Says:

    Miriam, you have simply been lucky enough to live in states where there simply aren’t enough Mormons to have them, or they would. Come out west once in a while, you may find you belong to a very different religion out here. Why did your daughter leave? Could it have been prevented if she had access to the Institute’s of Religion Chelovek talks about?

  24. admin Says:

    When I went to resign from the church, I sat in the back and watched sacrament meeting — my first time doing so for a long time. The primary was doing their program. Kids not old enough to know what they were saying were repeating “I know the church is true” over and over.

    I looked around and it kind of hit me: WOW are these people living in a bubble or what? Walking around thinking, “in the world but not of the world” all the time. It’s no wonder that Mormons don’t understand the gays. A drag queen and her wig would most certainly be too large to fit in the bubble.

    Miriam, trust me, you don’t really understand your sister in law. Unfortunately, I’ve come to the realization recently that my own Mormon family doesn’t really understand or fully know me, even though I’ve been out of the closet for many years. There is SO much about my life that they don’t know or understand.

    Here’s a cartoon dramatization of the mormon bubble…

  25. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Sam,
    Yes I am very fortunate to have lived in NY and NH. They are beautiful states with a greater majority of Latter-Day Saints than you realize. I did not say that my daughter left the church. At this point, in her life, she simply choses to do other things on Sundays, and her husband belongs to no religious group.

  26. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    To admin:
    I grew up in a protestant church. My dad was Jewish, and my Mother protestant. I remember learning many lines, by rote, that I am not sure that I understood as a child. We had children’s’ day pieces,as well as Christmas. That is not so different as a once a year LDS primary presentation.
    As far as your so called bubble. I am sure that there are plenty of drag queens in
    SLC. I also think that it is very cheeky of you to say that I don’t understand my sister-in law. You don’t know her. I have know her since I was nineteen. I am now almost sixty two. I can love, and understand her without agreeing with her choices. I certainly love my husband , and children, but do not agree with everything they do or think.

  27. sam Says:

    Miriam, so even your daughter hasn’t been able to fully break free even though she has no pressure at her home to stay. Don’t you think that’s a bit odd? Why the cryptic, “Other things she chooses to do on Sunday?” Why is it that I only know Mormons with this problem, mostly gay ones (but why should they be the only brainwashed ones). People from other homophobic religious backgrounds (with the possible exception of many Islamic traditions) just go somewhere else if their church starts doing something they find offensive and don’t think twice about it.

    I brought up maybe seeing what your church looks like on the West Coast because you claimed that none of the ones you’ve been in have basketball courts, stages, etc. ALL the ones I’ve seen in CO and California have them. In fact I can’t remember ever seeing one without and I’m not even Mormon. I can’t see why you would lie about this and since I never saw one living in NYC, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just hadn’t been to another one. That said, every believing Mormon I’ve ever met has some difficulty telling the truth about some of the stranger tenants of their religion. They either lie outright, or lie by omission even when the truth is patently obvious or verifiable to anyone, like having a basketball court. It’s so bizarre and the creepiest part is that you usually get the same lie if you ask the question in Seattle or San Diego! Why do you think that is Miriam?

  28. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Mr. Sam,
    I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I am not lying to you. I said that the chapels, that I attended, had no stage or basketball court. I have seen many lovely wards, or stake centers that include such facilities. The young people, in those wards, get to play on regular high school sport teams. Our former stake center, in Albany, NY, put on the play “Fiddler on the Roof”. That certainly isn’t a “Mormon cult” play. I wasn’t being cryptic in my statement about my daughter. I said that she choses to do other things on Sundays. She has other priorities at this time in her life. It doesn’t make me happy, but we are extremely close. My husband, and I love her, and her husband, very much. I don’t know what is cryptic about that. It seems like a clear cut statement.
    I do not understand why you feel that believing “Mormons” don’t tell the truth. I am sure that you have had limited experiences. The Church is a worldwide church. There are LDS in nations all over the world. People are drawn to the Church because it stands for what it believes in. Beliefs are not changed to suit the members. People are looking for direction, and clarity, in their lives.
    I hope that you will know that I am not telling you lies. If you knew me, you would know that I am a confident person who stands for what I believe in. I make my own choices, and I am not just “following” church doctrine.

  29. chelovek Says:

    Miriam:

    I have read your last several posts and you have gone out of your way to prove that you are indeed a Mormon Cult Propagandist tool. I know you won’t agree with that because, as I said, the brainwashed never understand that they are brainwashed.

    I was forced to see beyond the brainwashing because of the shock of encountering the Mormon Cult hatred of gay people like myself. I was once as hard core as they come.

    Others, like my son, just never bought into it and even at the age of eight strongly resisted being baptized. He only relented after being hounded endlessly by his mother and stepfather and bishop, and …. (pretty much everyone). So, he was never brainwashed in the first place and that’s why he is no longer in the cult.

    My ex-wife’s husband is another kind of case. After joining the church, being married in the temple, etc., etc., etc., he finally admitted after about 20 years that he never really believed in the Mormon Cult and only went along with it all to please his wife (talk about whipped!!!). So, he is no longer participating in the cult.

    These are only some of the ways that people escape from the brainwashing or never really become brainwashed in the first place.

    You, in my estimation, are still quite deeply brainwashed and challenge anything anyone says about the Mormon Cult whether you know what you are talking about or not.

    Here’s one for you Miriam. The book of Abraham has been proven to be a fraud in no uncertain terms and the Mormon Cult hides the fact from their members.

    The Book of Abraham is supposedly a text translated by Joseph Smith from an Egyptian papyrus. Of course, like all of Joseph Smith’s sources, the papyrus disappeared after the he “translated” it. Unlike all other alleged sources of Joseph Smith’s “translations” the papyrus reappeared in, I think, 1961. It was then translated from the hieroglyphs by several imminent scholars and was determined to be a standard set of funeral prayers and not at all what Joseph Smith wrote in the Book of Abraham.

    This proves that the Book of Abraham is a fraud. Moreover, it likewise proves that Joseph Smith was a fraud. As such, the entire Mormon Cult is a fraud by simple extension.

    Of course, the truth never interferes with the beliefs of the brainwashed so this will make no difference to the brainwashed.

  30. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Chelovek,
    Since you have never met me, or spoken to me, I really would like to know how you seem to think you know how I believe or anything else about me. If the Church is such a “cult”, how is it that your ex wife’s husband, broke away from it. No one is forced to stay in the Church. I know of many people, who do not believe, who are or were members. I am friends with them.
    If you have truly read my posts, you will realize that I do not hate gays. I have never heard any vile things said, about gays, in church. Do I approve of homosexuality-NO. However, I am strongly against abortion. Do I hate someone who has undergone and abortion-NO.
    Adultery is wrong. I hate the sin, not the person who engages in such.
    I have been a church member for nearly forty four years. I am a convert. I think that you are very brazen to tell me how I feel or think. You are upset if you are told that your life style is wrong. I have the right to believe what I do. I am hardly brainwashed. I chose to believe as I do.
    I would like to know more facts surrounding the supposed falsehood of the Book of Abraham. No one has shown me any proof, so far.

  31. chelovek Says:

    Miriam:

    You must have read that in a big hurry because you don’t seem to have understood most of it and responded out of context.

    Ex-wife’s husband didn’t break away – he never believed to begin with.

    I said I wrote your last several posts – not all of them.

    I did not say that you hate gays. If you inferred this from something else then perhaps the shoe fits.

    I have heard many vile things said about gays by many, many Mormon Cult members. The fact that it is not being said from the pulpit doesn’t make it any less real.

    Yes it has been said “Hate the Mormon Bigotry. Love the Mormon Bigot.”

    You think anyone who doesn’t agree with you is brazen to say so.

    I don’t have a lifestyle. I have a “god-given” nature. Would you tell a blue-eyed person that you don’t agree with her “blue-eyed lifestyle”? Would you tell a black person that you don’t agree with his “black-skinned lifestyle”? Would you tell a woman that you do not agree with her “female lifestyle”? There is no such thing as a “gay lifestyle”. There is only each person living with his/her own “god-given” nature.

    The brainwashed never think they are brainwashed! That’s part of what defines the thinking of the brainwashed individual.

    You can get all the info about the Book of Abraham debacle at http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_bookofabraham.html . There is more proof than any reasonable (non-brainwashed) person could possibly need!

    One other question Miriam. Why are you up after 1:00 am on Sunday morning responding to me. Don’t you have anything else to do?

  32. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Mr. Sam,
    I am up, even after one a.m. I am a night owl. I have been ill, all week, so I plan to stay home from church today. I am not being forced by the so called “cult’ to attend my meetings. I will respond to more later. One last thing: you did say I hated gays. You stated that “Mormon Cult” members have a hatred towards gays. I am a Mormon: therefore, you feel that I belong to a gay hating cult. Not so.

  33. sam Says:

    Miriam, that was chelovek. I think he was asking you to respond to the proof that the Book of Abraham (I know it’s still in the Mormon Canon) is a fraudulent translation of an Egyptian, funerary text.

    I never said or implied you hated gays, I doubt you would be here this long if you really did. Chelovek did ask you if the shoe fits. Nothing you’ve posted on this site that I’ve read implies that you do, other than belonging to a homophobic church (before you go off on a tangent … homophobic just means it espouses unequal and/or denigrating doctrine about homosexuality … I think that’s fairly clear and wouldn’t be argued by any thoughtful and truthful Mormon). Your right, I assumed when you said attended … you meant it literally, as in ever been there, not as in its your regular house of worship.

    The pattern here is that honestly, this is how conversations with every single believing Mormon I’ve ever known goes (and yes there have been a lot of them). I find the religion, or I should say the people that believe it fascinating for many reasons so I rarely pass up an opportunity to talk to them because they hold so many contradictory positions, and although they all profess to belief in telling the absolute truth, they often lie, or mislead, like you did. Only after being called on it with proof, do you clarify.

    I don’t think you’re a bad person, I do think you have been culturally (at the very least) indoctrinated to some extent by your faith since you’ve demonstrated the same lack of complete honesty I find with other Mormons. I guarantee you that if I asked a Mormon about the basketball/chapel issue in California, we would go through the same twists and turns before arriving at the truth. That’s just a silly basketball court question. Start asking questions about more controversial doctrines like Black people being denied Mormon priesthood because of something they did or didn’t do in the Mormon pre-world, or the Book of Abraham and you really get the full treatment from outright lie, to finally fessing up after being shown multiple sources of proof. Why not just be completely honest by what you say AND by what you don’t? People who have nothing to hide or be embarrassed by, generally do. That’s all I’m trying to say.

  34. DeMichelis Says:

    @ chevlovek

    “like all of Smith’s sources” well you obviously haven’t studied Mormons enough, some of his sources were also the BIBLE, you can get one at Walmart, and he translated things from it that were found later on the original hebrew manuscripts, now of course you wont care about anything that doesn’t support your point but maybe others reading this would be smarter and actually research things

  35. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Mr. Sam.
    I am sorry that I confused you with Chelovek. I really haven’t lied, or tried to obscure the truth, on this blog. The definition of homophobic is: an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people. I, and the Church, do not have an aversion to homosexual people. The deed is the problem. The individuals are like anyone else. There are good , and bad characteristics in most people.
    I hope that you have a Merry Christmas!

  36. sam Says:

    Miriam,

    Please don’t call me “Mr.” it sounds so strange :) I’ll be happy to call you “Ms”, “Mrs”, or “Miss” if you like. I’ll also take your word that you weren’t purposely misleading but I think if you re-read what you wrote, you’ll see the pattern I was talking about.

    I assume by deed, you mean sex, and if that’s the case then that is indeed irrational of you and your church to oppose gay marriage. Your church is clearly VERY opposed to gay marriage, which would rationally mean it was in favor of increased gay sex. You say it’s not so, again, I’ll take your word for it. I know that for you, as a member of a church that strictly enforces no premarital sex, this idea may blow your mind so stay with me for a second.
    1. Single adults, overall and regardless of sexuality in this country, have more sex, with more people, than married adults. So, one could reasonably assume that marriage decreases sexual activity among adult Americans.
    2. Even if you don’t believe that assumption, can you honestly state that you believe there are *ANY* gay couples out there waiting for marriage to be legalized for them before they have sex?!? Trust me, that idea is truly absurd, particularly to any gay person. There may be one or two couples in all of Mass waiting, but that is still decreasing gay sex. In other words, keeping gay marriage illegal anywhere, does nothing but increase gay sex.

    If the word “married” means anything to same sex couples, it’s a deeper commitment to each other. Married gay couples in Mass have been shown to be much less likely to break up, and more likely to be monogamous than non-married couples. So opposing gay marriage, is, in proven reality, not only supporting increased gay sex, its supporting increased non-monogamous gay sex & the STD’s (including deadly ones like HIV) that go along with that. Is that not showing an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality?

  37. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Sorry Sam. I called you Mr., because I assumed you were a man. I usually call men, that I don’t know well, Mr. Miriam is fine for me.
    I do not approve of premarital sex for anyone. I truly believe that it(sex) should be between a legally married man and woman. I am sure that you won’t agree with me, and I won’t agree with you. We have the right to have differing opinions. Again, Sam, Merry Christmas.

  38. chelovek Says:

    DeMichelis:

    Please provide detailed proof or the location of such proof for your claims about Joseph Smith “translating” the Bible such that his translation was/is more accurate. What documents/manuscripts did Joseph Smith “translate” that are part of the King James version of the modern bible to which you refer? What original Hebrew manuscript are you talking about and in whose possession are those manuscripts now? How many Hebrew language scholars and biblical scholars are in wholehearted agreement with Joseph Smith’s translation? How many of the scholars you can site are not Mormon Cult members? I suspect that you are simply misinformed or deluded. You are more than welcome to provide me with proof to the contrary and I will give it genuine consideration.

    Anyway, Mormon Cult doctrine says that it only believes that Bible to correct so far as it is correctly translated and puts it in second place behind all Mormon Cult “scripture”.

    BTW, while still a brainwashed member of the Mormon Cult, I read the Book of Mormon cover to cover in several languages and a total of 7 times. I read the Bible cover to cover, Old and New Testament, twice. I read all the D&C and such many times and studied all Mormon literature intensely for a great many years. I had a large of amount of “scriptures” memorized just like a good brainwashed Mormon Cult member should. How about you?

    Perhaps you are like my Mormon Cult relatives who believe that science is just an opinion with no more weight than any persons opinions.

    I strongly suspect that neither you nor Miriam actually went to the MormonCurtain sight and seriously researched what is there.

    I am always accused of being unfamiliar with Mormon Cult doctrines and culture because Mormon Cult members simply cannot conceive of someone being intimately familiar with all of the Cult in every aspect and still understanding that it is all a great fraud.

  39. Barking Mad Says:

    Interesting conversation going on here. Have you noticed that Pope Benedict XVI has decided that homosexuality is a worldwide problem that must be dealt with on the scale that we must deal with global warming and pollution? I wonder if he’s a closet Mormon.

    Here’s a recollection. In the early 1990s the LDS congregations in SW Utah were exhorted in services and by their home and visiting teachers to join physical presence boycotts of the “Pure Pleasure Adult Bookstore” just across the state border in Nevada. Well, perhaps some people gave a hoot about this, but the boycott groups were to write down the vehicle license plate numbers with “Utah” on them of patrons at this Adult Bookstore, and these were made known back in God’s Country. The fact that the Bookstore was quite legal (if offering services that I wouldn’t much care to partake of) didn’t enter into it. This fact, that Pure Pleasure had a license, operated within the law, and was subject to rules and regulations established by the state and federal governments was NEVER mentioned to the Mormons being “told” it was their “duty” to go and take plate numbers and find names. I think this may be the sort of “brainwashing” you are discussing here … the ONE-SIDED APPROACH TO THINGS with no room for discussion and, god forbid, decision that, hey, maybe the church hasn’t got this one quite right.

    I’m NOT in favour of “gay marriage” in a way. I believe that “marriage” should be a two parents of two sexes thing, and that this is the better way in most cases to raise up children. I think nature is compelling on that one. HOWEVER, I do believe that gay legal partnerships are not just reasonable, but sensible, necessary and can be a benefit to society.

    The Pope’s pronouncement, and those of the Mormon leadership, can only serve to encourage emnity, hatred and even violence against a substantial portion of the population. So, the gays/lesbians, perhaps 5 to 10 percent of the population, have a right to say “Stop picking on us!” much the same as the Mormon Church, a much smaller percentage of people in the world population, have a right to say (and don’t they say it often!) “Stop picking on us!” Frankly, I’m amazed that such a peculiar minority would be so offensive to another minority that is not quite as strange!

    If the Pope is not much more than Osama bin Laden arrayed in gold stolen from butchered native peoples around the world when it comes to ideologies, then I think I can add the Mormon Leadership clothed in its robes and fig-leaf aprons and hats and masonic-handshakes to the mix. Curious that these folks all seem to wear skirts, isn’t it?

    By the way, I subscribe to Joseph Smith’s doctrines that are, I believe, gnostic. Plurality of gods, celestialised men, and so on, hold the robes. Why not? Joseph believed those things enough to stake (and lose) his life over them, now they are not PC, not likely to win converts, so hush-hush. I think the Prophet Joseph might have some very interesting ideas on Prop 8, but we don’t consider that because God (despite the “unchanging” claims of the Mormons) is regularly adjusted for convenience, and only sometimes for the better.

    The fact that a DISCUSSION is going on here, on this blog, with little vituperation, is a Good Thing. You would not, I fear, be permitted to say these things to another Saint at the ward chapel after Sacrament Meeting. We ALL need to think these things through, we need to THINK, not just parrot. Wasn’t it Joseph who said to puzzle it out, think it through?

    Nice work, STM Blog!

  40. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Yes, I did go to the site MormonCurtain. I cannot say that I seriously researched the site, because there is nothing serious to research.

  41. sam Says:

    Mr. Miriam,

    First of all, sorry for the mistake, I assumed that you were a woman based on your name, my sister Alex gets this all the time too :)

    You brought up a straw man about whether or not we disagree on premarital sex in general, instead of addressing the issue at hand about your explanation of your Church’s homophobic behavior. When people do that, it generally means they can’t think of a reasonable response. Was that it?

    The discussion was about you explaining your Church’s opposition to gay marriage BECAUSE OF GAY SEX. It doesn’t stand up up the even minimal scrutiny when you seriously think about it, since marriage, including same-sex marriage, DECREASES sexual activity overall, and, more importantly, it decreases sexual activity outside committed relationships. Lastly, even if your Church were seriously mistaken on this point (I doubt that after 22 million, multiple ads, satellite strategy discussions, and travel of Church leaders, just to start… they haven’t at least thought it through), simply being against gay sex is in and of itself a little absurd (seriously, you want the government regulating human sex?!?) and VERY bigoted. If I was against Asians having sex I would be racist. If I was against left handed people having sex I would be a bigot as well. To then support legislation that I mistakenly think may indirectly decrease gay sex in whatever group I’m targeting, (in this case 18,000 same sex couples, some of whom have children who now, legally only have one parent again) is WAYYYY BEYOND THE PALE. Perhaps that can help you understand the outrage here.

    On the other hand, if your church had thought this through (extremely likely assumption) AND was being truthful (that thing again), they would be clamoring to get gay marriage approved in every state. They are not. So, what is the real reason … honestly?

  42. sam Says:

    Oops, getting my debate terms mixed up. That’s was not a straw man logical fallacy it’s a “red herring” fallacy.

  43. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    To Barking Mad……………….
    I have never seen a LDS man in a skirt, except in a skit or Halloween. I also wouldn’t be stopped from saying what I wanted after sacrament meeting. I can, and do, utter what I choose.

  44. chelovek Says:

    Miriam:

    There was nothing serious to research? I also suspect you may well not have gone to MormonCurtain until after I pointed out that you likely had not.

    Hmmm. I would guess that you think science is an opinion as well.

    You ask for proof of someone’s claims and then, when given proof, call it nothing. What do you really expect a reasonable person to do with that response other than conclude that you are indeed hopelessly brainwashed?

    Once again let me make it clear that there is nothing for you to approve or disapprove of with respect to gay persons. There is nothing for you to agree or disagree with me or anyone else about their sexual orientation. You were never asked in the first place and you have no authority to pass judgment. It simply doesn’t concern you! The astounding assumption on your part that what you think about the existence of gay people should actually matter to anyone other than yourself speaks volumes of an egomaniacal world view that just makes a thinking person’s jaw drop in astonishment.

    Oh well. Like I said, the brainwashed cult member never understands she is the brainwashed cult member by definition.

  45. Barking Mad Says:

    Miriam,

    I suppose you would not have seen an LDS man dressed in his “shield” for his annointings … unless you had been snooping in that part of the Temple. Perhaps not so much a skirt as a tent or mu-mu. But look at your Mormon fellow in his full Temple dress (have you ever dared? had a real look?) and he looks rather more like Osama than a New England farmer. Why?

    I’m not speaking from a point of total ignorance, by the way, having been LDS all my adult life, and I’m hardly young. In the branches and wards I’ve attended (and I lived in Utah for years) it was certainly better NOT to mention certain things in the corridors after Sacrament. “Take that outside! Take that off the property!” As a Priesthood leader and teacher, I found the books we based our classes on were pretty strictly defined … And if one person (and there always was one person) disliked “discussion” it had to stop.

    MormonCurtain is fascinating. Try telling your Relief Society President after Sacrament that you visited the site. She MIGHT say “Oh! Better not to go to places like THAT …” Which means, of course, just “Don’t go there!” End of discussion.

    For all the huge problems with Mormonism, Joseph Smith was a brilliant man and he was onto something. He kept revising things as he went along to make the present seem acceptable, but he failed to anticipate so much (not that I could have forseen 2008 50 years ago). I don’t know if anyone has written a study on Joseph Smith from the point of view of psychology, psychiatry and so on. WHY might he have done what he did? I wonder if he might have been Manic Depressive (he certainly exhibited symptoms of mania and depression) much as William Blake and Virginia Woolf were (and a number of other creative geniuses). It’s not a bad thing. BUT WOULD DESERET BOOKS sell such a thing if it were published?

    We do know that Joseph’s son, David Hyrum, born about 5 months after the martyrdom, was brilliant and went insane. Of all Joseph’s children he seems to have that look in his eye that most resembles his father’s. His talents might have been greater except for the degree of his madness.

    A shame these things are not DISCUSSED rather than endless hours on the bogus parts of Joseph Smith’s work. I see the POGP books (and the D&C) as a kind of creative poetry by Joseph. It’s no odder than the work of William Blake, though not quite as divine. The BoM seems to be “Another Testament of Jesus Christ” for certain, but it is a story, isn’t it, a fiction, to illustrate, paint a picture of, Jesus and what his words do to us. Sadly, as you know, Miriam, Jesus came not with peace, but with a sword. Joseph Smith … much the same. The current LDS Leadership … ditto. All is confrontation. All is “I am exclusively correct … Dare you disagree?”

    Dare you? Really?

  46. sam Says:

    Barking Mad,

    You seem like a reasonable fellow (except for the separate but equal civil rights deal), so I was wondering if you would take a crack at the questions Mr. Miriam doesn’t seem able to.

    1. Why on Earth is the Mormon church SO incomprehensibly and uncompromisingly apposed to civil marriage by same sex couples (see my post above).

    2. What do you make of the Book of Abraham controversy?

    3. Yeah I think we’re all aware of the former Nazi-youth RC Pope’s fanatic homophobia, but not really the point of this blog AND the RC church, for all its immense wealth, and huge (relative to Mormon) population percentage in CA, contributed only a pittance to Prop 8 vs the Mormons. Evidently wcwn most Roman Catholics take his rantings with a grain or salt as well. Not so with the Mormon President … his word is God to most Mormons.

  47. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Sam,
    I am Mrs. Miriam Feldstein Case, but you may call me Miriam. I am a female.
    I, personally, am against premarital sex. I do not see this as a red herring. There is nothing homophobic about not approving of premarital sex, or sex in general, between people of the same gender. I do not, nor does the church, have a phobia concerning homosexuals. I believe that marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman. I think that we should be able to hold that belief. We most likely won’t come to an agreement on this issue.

  48. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Chelovek,
    I did read parts of the “mormon curtain” before you mentioned it. I enjoy science, but I believe that there are many theories and not all are true. I also have the right of not approving of something. You have the same privilege. I am not the judge, God is. I love all people, but I certainly do not have to like everything they do. I have that
    right as well as you.

  49. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Barking Mad,
    Yes I dare to disagree. I also have no fear of talking about ,what I chose, in church.

  50. chelovek Says:

    Miriam:

    Brainwashed is as brainwashed does. The brainwashed Mormon Cult member is not capable of recognizing she is the brainwashed Mormon Cult member. You are obviously brainwashed. You can deny that until the cows come home and you will still be brainwashed.

    BTW, thanks for your permission to both be gay and have an opinion. That’s really generous of you!

  51. sam Says:

    Miriam,

    I think I’ve got it now.

    We aren’t disagreeing on whether or not premarital sex is religiously OK, or even if gay or straight sex is religiously OK … in any context … in or out of marriage. Sex is simply not the issue at hand, which is why it is a red herring.

    I am also not disagreeing with your right to believe anything you want, even things that some people may find offensive, like that they should be celibate their whole life. That said, most people also believe that your right to swing your hand, also ends where another persons nose begins. So codifying your religious beliefs about what kind of marriage is OK for other clearly consenting adults into law, is another issue entirely.

    What we are also disagreeing on, is using any religious certainty or belief that disapproves of gay sex as a reason to oppose gay marriage, since the law that was passed in California defined legal marriage, NOT legal sex. Prop 8, in fact, never mentioned gay sex (the red herring) one way or the other, it only outlawed gay marriage.

    If anything, there is an inverse relationship between gay marriage and gay sex. There is clearly not a positive correlation. Gay sex is, to this very day, punishable by DEATH in some countries and gay people STILL have sex in those same countries. You can’t honestly believe that outlawing gay marriage will affect gay sex in any way other than to increase serial monogamy and/or promiscuity amongst the target population. Since you disapprove of gay people having sex, I assume that is not the reason. If it’s not what your church is supporting, then I ask again, what is the REAL reason your church has to oppose gay marriage?

  52. chelovek Says:

    Sam:

    In case you haven’t noticed, Miriam has carefully avoided answering every issue that requires any demonstration of critical thinking skills.

    Your posts are intelligent and well measured but you really are wasting your time with Miriam. She will never have a serious, meaningful, honest conversation with you or anyone else for that matter. Miriam is not capable of intelligent, adult conversation and that’s why she only responds to side “issues” instead of the real, legitimate questions posed to her. After all, if Miriam were capable of genuine, legitimate, adult, critical thinking she would not be a believing member of the Mormon Cult in the first place.

    Anyway, thanks for your intelligent and well thought out queries which will, sadly, go unanswered by any believing Mormon Cult member since they can’t say what they really believe and still make any sense.

  53. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Chelovke,
    What question have I not answered to your satisfaction? What issue am I avoiding? I have tried to respect you, on this blog, and you say that I “am not capable of intelligent, adult conversation”. Please pose your questions again.

  54. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    Sam,
    The reason that the LDS church disapproves of gay marriage can be found in the church’s “Proclamation on the Family”. Why don’t your read it?You most likely will not agree with it, but it gives reasons for a monogamous , opposite gender unions.

  55. sam Says:

    Miriam, I just (re-read) that proclamation. It is a radical, by modern Christian standards, statement of religious belief, which is fine. Every religion I’ve ever run across puts out (a bit more mainstream) statements like this on occasion. Although, if you literally believe that the human race began with Adam and Eve, it’s really just saying that everyone who’s ever lived now, before, or after will all be together in one huge family-like structure (except for the ones that go to different Mormon heavens.

    There’s this sentence, that is maybe intentionally ambiguous, “we believe that (sex is) to be employed only between man and woman, LAWFULLY wedded as husband and wife.” So I guess, depending on if your church is talking about it’s law or a State’s law this would explain why they have some interest in civil law governing heterosexual marriage, nothing about homosexual marriage other than, by extension, they don’t believe it’s an acceptable context for sexual expression. Maybe if Gay Mormons promised to remain celibate after marriage your church would have a different take?

    It goes on to say have lots of kids (perfect, just what we need), raise them right to be “law abiding” perhaps another ambiguous statement of interest in civil law in GENERAL, again no mention of same sex marriage law.

    Goes on to explain Mormon religious belief about heterosexual marriage, including the role of the man and the woman in the marriage (a bit of a throwback to the 1950′s) but ok …

    Nothing in here addresses why the Church feels it is so VERY VERY Important that non-believing, same sex couples not be given the same legal rights and access to civil marriage that opposite sex couples have unless you are warning us that the Mormon’s are going to attack the marriages of all non-believers, non-believing childless couples, or believing sterile couples next.

    It Does end with this: “We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.”

    THAT IS FASCINATING as it appears to be in direct opposition to the observed heartless attack ongoing in the California courts right now to tear apart 18,000 same-sex families with a forced divorce including those households who have children by adoption, surrogacy, prior failed marraiges, and even foster kids.

    Why is tearing those families apart that may want to function and do most everything mentioned (other than the specific religious beliefs the Mormons espouse) so important? This Mormon Church Statement is entirely silent on that! I really don’t see how this in any way answers the question regarding why your church so vociferously opposes CIVIL marriage equality. I’m afraid if it’s there, I missed it entirely. You’ll have to spell it out for us.

  56. rontox Says:

    you know what you guys all this arguing won’t change anyone’s mind and is just plain stupid. i believe that gay marriage is wrong but i also know that all people are free to choose. Know one should force someone to believe one way or another. and all this pointless arguing will never solve anything so just knock it off.

  57. Sheri Lawson Says:

    Hey, I love all the links and connections I find on Mormons For Marriage. That’s how I arrived here. When you talk about Mind Control and Mormons I clearly relate. I’ve just finished a book, currently at the publisher, titled, The Spell of Religion …and the Battle over Gay Marriage. I’m a straight mom and grandma, married in the temple for 24 years when I left the church around 2003. I hope to keep in touch.
    ~Sheri

  58. Sheri Lawson Says:

    I hope this post works this time, I keep getting an error message. I love the Mormons For Marriage website cause I find links to other sites like this one – that’s how I arrived here. I’m a straight woman, born and raised Mormon, married in the temple for 24 years, raised 3 great kids, all Prop 8 supporters;-( and 3 grandboys. Speaking of Mind control and Mormonism — because of my heartbreak over prop 22 and prop 8 I just finished writing a book which is currently at the printer titled, The Spell of Religion …and the Battle Over Gay Marriage. Once I broke free of the spell and was able to see clearly the deceptive mind control being perpetrated, I was horrified. It truly breaks my heart.

    I just watched a medical T.V. show where a little girl was brought to the ER by her teacher with unexplained burns to her legs. It made me cry. It was discovered she was a victim of child abuse. My mind couldn’t help but go to the beautiful, loving gentle gays and lesbians out there who have suffered terrible emotional abuse by homophobic views directed at them by those who are supposed to love, cherish and protect them, their families, friends and churches. How can Mormons complain about the civil disobedience that raged after gays were shunned once again and told they aren’t quite good enough to be called equal, and heaven forbid, allowed to share the word marriage?

    We aren’t kindergartners people. By the time we are old enough to vote we should be able to share with others – including the word marriage; especially when what we share takes nothing away from heterosexuals and creates love and joy in committed same gender partners. Live Christ’s example and his adage to Love One Another. And I don’t mean the type of love I keep hearing about where you can love the gays just not let them have equality. That’s NOT love, nor is it anywhere near love. It is pure discriminatory judgment that deeply hurts some of God’s most precious souls. If in the eternal scheme of things God truly abhors homosexuality (which I highly doubt) judgment will be up to Him/Her, not us.

  59. David Says:

    Yes, Mormons are the most vile, nefarious, self-interested bunch of people you’ll ever meet……. NOT!! It’s amazing what kind of hatred is spewed by so many for a group of people who in general do so much good (an interesting fact is the state of Utah has both the highest rate of volunteerism and the highest rate of charitable giving of all 50 states). Whether you agree or disagree with Mormons on gay marriage, they sure put the rest of us to shame in regards with how much good they do in their communities and the world.

  60. Miriam Feldstein Case Says:

    This is a short post? WOW, I can’t wait for the LONG post……………sarcasm,sacrarium, sarcasm!

Advertise Here
Advertise Here

Wear The Message

Visit our StopTheMormons shop for t-shirts and more to help you spread the message in your daily life (probably NOT safe for work).

 

Targeting Mormons Unfair?

Equality California estimates that Mormons donated as much as $20 million to Prop. 8, while the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic fraternal group, gave $1.25 million to the effort and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, $200,000.

 

Twitter

Follow me on Twitter. I'm "dcweeks" so just text "follow dcweeks" to 40404. My twitter page is here.

 

Bad Behavior has blocked 1142 access attempts in the last 7 days.